Can an ipad or an iphone mediate Communion?

It continues to be interesting to see how the press has picked up on the streaming of the service to iphones. We've had a number of inquires from churches and from individuals about what we are attempting to do here in Bo'ness with technology. I guess one of the things we want to be is authentic. We're not trying to compete with the mega churches. Indeed we're about trying to help local congregations see the advantage in them being local and streaming out their services. The thing we're not doing it to get more people to come to church on a Sunday that might be an out come, but its not our primary reason. We all know there has been a shift happening in the UK and else where in the Northern hemisphere regarding church attendance on a Sunday. Many churches are praying for a revival that people will come back to church at 11.00am on a Sunday. I'm not sure that is going to happen. I pray for the revival but we need to be open to see it happening in different ways. I just think we need to be open to the Spirit and ride some of the long waves and see where we end up. What we're trying to do meantime with our church services on the net is to try and keep all kinds od people connected with their faith. We're doing it to help people who cannot attend church services because the time won't work, or because they are miles away from a church with which they might connect. We're doing it to serve. Now if others can do the same thing and we have more churches streaming out worship who knows what effect that is going to have? One thing I know is that we had more people looking in on the internet than at church. Was that a bad thing. No, it was helping people engage where they were. In fact they too were at church or should I say at worship. Here is a quote from an email from a person who looked in on our evening service last Sunday. " The Communion service was inspirational. We four celebrated Communion with you and it was one of the most profound things we have ever experienced. To share such an event with family in one's home brings one closer to the early church experience. No need then for black ties and silver vessels - and so it was for us as we joined your congregation on Sunday. Thank you ! " "So it was for us we joined your congregation" They joined because they felt they could belong around the Lord's table in their own home. I think there is much more for us to think about here. Can we truly engage with communion over the internet? let's here your views.

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8 Comments
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Posted By: Helmut   On: 22 Jun 2010   At: 8:33pm

James, I suppose we all agree that people do not shop around for communion. Nobody scrounging Youtube for feeling so communiony….

Therefore I think it all depends on you: if you are quite serious about it, it should be allright. In case of dire need you might not even need a recording, anyway. Given ordinary circumstances, nobody would possibly use really old recordings, and given extraordinary cicumstances, it would be allright, I suppose. Let us be pragmatic and and not theorize about extraordinary circumstances.

That given, we should always strive to attend church and take communion in the flesh and stone, personally, with a minister I can feel, touch, and smell, a building I can sit in (made of stone, most of the time), a congregation that I can shake hands with.

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Posted By: James Cuénod   On: 22 Jun 2010   At: 7:21pm

Just to be clear, at this point I’m not sure where I stand - I’m simply trying to thrash out the issue.

So allow me to pose this question then; if space is not an issue, how about time?

In other words: Can we participate in a communion service that is recorded? How about in fifty years time, when half the congregation who were there at the time have passed away and we watch the recording then, can we still participate with them?

 

I’m just thinking through the issues…

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Posted By: italker   On: 22 Jun 2010   At: 12:37am

Dave,
Dave i think your right we need to always be open to exploration. I think there is a link between exploration and revelation. It woud be an interesting study to reflect upon.  We’ve been experimenting and exploring new ways to engage others with Communion apart from the iphone or ipad. If you get a moment click on the video at the side of my blog called “God So Loved the World”  this was filmed in Edinburgh a couple of years ago on Good Friday.  We took the bread and the wine out into the streets and placed it in the middle of a busy street.  It was facinating to see how people responded. We also took the bread and the wine and stopped outside a supermarket. It was humbling and moving to see the people who came forward to partake. All of them told us they were Christians and they were moved indeed constrained to take the bread and the wine in the street. It was almost like their witness. they could not walk by.

Could it be that Communion has a conversion aspect to it. It must have. I know some will quote Paul about eating and drinking unworthily. The truth is as the liturgy says ” We are all unworthy, ” We are not worthy to gather up the crumbs from the table” So what does it mean to eat and drink unworthily perhaps its when we actually think we are worthy. I wonder what exactly Paul meant by ” let a man examine himself” Surely it is only as see our need that we can come and be renewed. When we first did this i had a vision of ministers all over the country taking to the streets on Good Friday and holding the bread of life out to the world. What a stir that would cause. Truly a church without walls.

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Posted By: Dave Hackett   On: 21 Jun 2010   At: 6:56pm

Glad to see this conversation happening here. I’m “in favor” of exploring these new frontiers. And as my daughters are helping me to understand, especially among younger people, the lines between face-to-face and online are blurring rapidly. They are as intimately close to friends (and MORE of them) who are not physically present as they are to those select few who happen to be in the vicinity. This is no less than a redefining of “presence” for us, and we do well to explore it, see how it comes across to people (as some in this conversation have described), and see how God uses it.

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Posted By: Jonathan   On: 20 Jun 2010   At: 1:42pm

I have a simple view on this.  Communion is taken in remembrance of Jesus - “do this as oft as you will ...”.  The ideal is to take communion in communion.  But the ideal is not always available in the world in which we find ourselves.  People who take communion through a live or replayed service on an Ipod or Internet screen are in their own ‘live’ environment.  They are where they are.  So who are we to say whether it is or is not meaningful?  It is how you commit to God that matters.  If someone can be encouraged to share with God’s people (even on their own!) then the grace of God is shining on them. 

Last week, we had someone who broke bread in McDonalds.  Was that breaking of bread any less meaningful for them than it was for me?  They were in a different time zone (maybe!).  The fact that they took part, that they remembered, that they gave thanks makes all of this worthwhile. 

We should praise God and his people when they open up his Word through technology.  There are always better ways of doing things but starting something is often the hardest part.  St Andrews has been streaming services for some time now and with perseverance more people are worshipping the Lord.  It is particularly encouraging that Helmut is finding his online experience a stimulus for personal worship.  The Internet is a dangerous place for the reasons James has given (and many more!) but it is also a tremendous medium for sharing, reaching out and touching places far beyond an outstretched arm.

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Posted By: Helmut   On: 19 Jun 2010   At: 10:12pm

It had never occured to me that I might be one of the more longstanding online members of the congregation, so here are my thoughts.

With hindsight, it must have been God nudging me on - with a sledgehammer perhaps, but here we go.

I read that in Germany we have an ongoing debate about the validity of radio - tv -internet - services. Some can live with it, some cannot, and live transmission (and replay) of communion appears to be a no go area.

Radio services: several every Sunday, varying congregations and denominations (mainly Lutheran and Roman Catholic), real services.

TV services: main state tv channels taking turns, varying congregations and denominations. My wife’s personal experience reports rather disengaged tv crews and liason priests, services get clipped, trimmed, altered on the fly for presumed lack of time (basically killing the liturgy), sometimes more of an event than worship.

Online services: Last time I checked I only came about some fortnightly or monthly baptist service from the south of Germany, nothing else.

(distinct advantage: no fixed start and end times, therefore no panicking and clipping by camera crews or else)

Virtual church: You arrange for your own church by clicking on choices for just about everything - definitely not my kettle of fish, I found it disingenuous and utterly yukkie, cartoon church.

I used to know Bo’ness very well, so one happy day I went walkabout internetwise with regard to bonnie Bo’ness, and happened to bump into St.Andrews Parish Church, well, let’s have a look. Oooops, ONLINE service, LIVE, EVERY Sunday, TWICE actually, REPLAY, too.

Please note well: every Sunday, same congration, same denomination. If you like it, you come back and know that you will find the same style again, rather than a different church and denomination every Sunday.

I took the plunge and discovered a lively congregation and lively preaching. I came back, got in touch (embedded quicktime streams on linux could be difficult at that time), and it must be said, was invited in with arms and hearts wide open. (I should stress that I was NOT run over, fear of all fears!)

The most notable effect, however, has been my own very much increased participation in my local church in Germany! Geting reconnected! I still am trying to transplant ideas, getting things more lively in particular.

So I can say that online church has changed my live.

(By the way, I should also mention live streaming of the General Assembly -perhaps one day I can talk our regional (not to dream of the national) church into something vaguely similar, I am much more familiar with the going ons of the Church of Scotland than with what is going on within the Nordelbische Kirche (Lutheran Church of North-West Germany), a definite matter of easy access).

In the beginning online Communion would not have occured to me. When Albert did it recently and invited the online guests to join in I thought, well, let’s see. It worked quite allright for me. It was not just any oatcake, not just any sip of water.

Why should it have worked? There are two aspects: SAME congregation, SAME denomination, SAME style every Sunday. Quite honestly I would not dream of taking part in online communion with varying congregations as mentioned above, no shopping around. Therefore, MY church, quite all right then.

Secondly, well, people read trash, watch trash, do trash on their computers, iPhones and iPads. But there will always be those who also want to do serious things (and possibly both). I have come to accept that, after feeling rather queasy about it. Worship on the iPhone (I do not have one!) might not be your way or mine, but for some it will be, and for some there will be no other way. And as with me, it might guide them on to getting involved from a distance, and possibly very short range as well.

I will have to think some more about Replay Communion. I have not been able to make up my mind yet. Just now I should say, no, I would not sort of participate in a recorded, replayed, tinned communion. (I sincerely hope that nobody is going to conduct a double blind experiment on that!) But I might say that it was not just any congregation but mine (from a distance), that even if I was not there live even from a distance, it still was done for me as well, albeit recorded, and that it is my Lord anyway. In that respect the questions Albert is asking during communion (peace with your neighbour etc., I cannot recall the words) are very helpful, seen like that: even if I were to do communion on my very own, I would have to answer those questions to myself, and might find myself NOT ready to take communion.

(Albert, please feel free to moderate my posting. English is my second language after all, and I might have blundered!)

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Posted By: italker   On: 18 Jun 2010   At: 11:48pm

Hi James great to have your comments. I can see why you might think the way you do as an initial response. However like David Hackett has commented in the Lausanne Conversation on this topic, it may be more complicated than you think and I would add less shallow than you might imagine. Here is my additional response to david you might find soemthing interesting in it.

“Thank you for your comment David. and your link to the Church Fathers.  I have been really encouraged by the response that we’ve resceived from those who participated in the communion service last Sunday. I have no doubt that we can engage real community on the web. We have actually stopped using the term virtual because we believe community is formed when those who engage have the real intention to belong. For us virtual means ‘not quite there” The truth is we’ve been streaming out worship now for over two years and we’ve come to see that many of our internet congregation communicate with us more reguarly than some who physically attend worship. in reality they are more there than some who are always there, if you get my meaning.

The thing is it is not our physical presence that brings about Communion as Christiians we believe that Communion is constituted by the Spirit.  Christ the Son has instituted the Communion but it is the power of the Spirit that constitutes its dynamic reality. So it is He who brings together all that is needed to create communion. This in itself is a miracle. The iphone in a sense is a demonstration of the reality of presence at a distance being brought near. This too is the work of the Spirit for He to brings us near to God. Indeed you could argue that every piece of creative science is the work of the Holy Spirit revealing more and more about this amazing creation and allowing us the created to engage in the experience of creativity.

Traditionally the Church Fathers believed Communion is not simplly with those who are physically present they taught it is also a communion of the Saints. The Communion Service is a foretaste of the great eschatological feast. it is a bringing together of the whole church in time and eternity. The physical and the non physical.

There is also the idea of the communion of the saints having an aspect in which we can be at one with each other although we are many miles apart.  Prayer itself is an example of a type of Communion.There is a whole understanding of Communion that has seldom been explored when we read of the Prophets being caught up in the Spirit and being put down in another place.

I think we can be seduced to think that Community is formed only when someone is physically present. The truth is that many people go to church and are physically present but they do not belong they do not interact as a member of the worshipping body of Christ.  You can be physically present but disengaged. You can be physically absent but totally engaged on line. Indeed the absence of someone can make their presence come nearer.

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Posted By: James Cuénod   On: 17 Jun 2010   At: 7:41pm

An interesting thought.

I’m from South Africa and so the idea of online churches is still quite novel here (with broadband still being quite young).

My immediate response is to think of situations in which it would not be proper. The example of a perfectly able person sitting at home, having communion on his/her own. Surely this is missing something. Obviously Heb 10:25 will soon become part of this discussion although we must realise that the idea of being “remotely present” or “virtually present” was nowhere in the minds of NT writers. So my argument will be that connecting virtually is shallow and cannot be compared to human contact. To back this up, we can look at children who somehow manage to communicate fine through facebook or instant messaging on cellphones and yet, cannot handle face to face conversations.

 

Surely something is lacking here? I will concede that in some instances it may be helpful (e.g. when someone is lying in a hospital bed and is unable to go to church) but not that it is ever optimal.

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